E04: Leadership that Listens – Dr. Karen Ladley on Servant Leadership

Welcome to the Compassionate Newsroom podcast. I'm Dr. Courtney Alston-Lemon. I'm a former television reporter and news director turned happiness scholar. I train news leaders and journalists internationally to foster workplace well-being, resilience, and a positive culture in their newsrooms.

Every week I'll bring you evidence-based strategies and inspiring interviews from news leaders, journalists, and experts worldwide who prioritize the mental health of their teams and themselves. Let's redefine what it means to lead with compassion in journalism, one episode at a time.

Dr. Kortni Alston (00:33)
Welcome back to the Compassionate Newsroom. Happy Wellbeing Wednesday. I'm Dr. Courtney. And today we're exploring a topic very dear to me, servant leadership, alongside someone who holds a special place in my heart. Joining us is a dear friend of mine of 25 years. Yes, I said it, 25 years.

and her name is Dr. Karen Ladley. She and I first met actually in the trenches of television news, and it's been incredible to watch her journey. She's currently the Associate Senior Director of the Rosalynn Carter Fellowships for Mental Health Journalism at the Carter Center, where she plays a pivotal role in shaping how journalists approach mental health reporting. In addition to her work at the Carter Center, Dr. Karen has a significant background

in academia, where she was an associate dean and where she also applied her deep knowledge and leadership skills. She holds a doctorate of education, a professional degree focused on leadership and educational research. And Dr. Karen uses her expertise to implement change and promote servant leadership, putting the needs of others first to foster growth and development. Well, today she'll share her wisdom.

and also as it relates to empowering us in terms of leadership that can help transform newsrooms, but it also helps across the board. Plus, we'll talk about our favorite subject, the pioneering work of our beloved former First Lady of the United States, Mrs. Carter. Let's dive in.

Dr. Kortni (02:14)
Here I am with the amazing Dr. Karen Ladley. Guys, this person is one of my favorite humans. She and I have been friends for 25 years and we're only 18. we met in television news.

Dr. Karen (02:33)
That's right.

Dr. Kortni (02:39)
in Philadelphia many moons ago. I'm so super excited that she is here in regards to her work, her incredible work with the Carter Center, and also to share levels of her journey, to making the transition from being an anchor to now.

being a part of this global organization the wonderful mission that she is leading in regards to, gosh, Mrs. Carter's pioneering efforts with mental health journalism. Karen, I'm so happy you're here today.

Dr. Karen (03:19)
Dr. Courtney Lemon, I am so happy to be here with you. I'm so excited about this work, this podcast. It just so beautifully blends in with who you are and how you feel and all the work that you do with the Carter Center and beyond and as an instructor. It's just so exciting. It's so needed.

Dr. Kortni (03:36)
get ready to hear lots of love guys.

Dr. Karen (03:41)
Many years of

Dr. Kortni (03:43)
That's many years, many years of love. So, you know, one of the things that really stood out to me, thinking about our journey together and really all the various markets, we both worked, but you were particularly, right, in terms of working in markets for reporting and also transitioning into anchoring. I am curious, before we kind of dive in to the wonderful work you're doing at the Carter Center, I want to talk about

leadership with you. Who was one of your best leaders in television news and why were they so effective?

Dr. Karen (04:23)
You know, I hate to say this, but I don't know that I could pinpoint an effective leader in TV news. It wasn't until I moved into higher education learned what servant leadership was and really took to that because it's very much embodies who I am naturally in that I want to, I mean, I worked in a TV station that was on your side, right? Back in the...

in the early 2000s when TV was, your journalists were shedding light on sort of an injustice for somebody. And I gravitated toward that work. I loved that work. But to a lot of what you and I know now today in journalism, that servant leadership is not often seen in the hierarchies of news, right? We don't see a lot of, know, except for present company excluded, we don't see a lot of news directors who

are worried about their journalists, I did not see a lot of that. I had transitioned into motherhood in the newsroom and that was quite a wake-up call for me. There was not much understanding or care So, you know, I had that horribly sick child, hospitalized child, and I called into work to say, I just can't come in, I haven't slept.

in X amount of hours. My son was in the ER last night. home now. Okay, well, you know, come in tonight. You don't need to come in right now, but come in later. I'll just switch you with someone, you know. So that was my experience, and that's what actually took me out of the business and into higher education. And that's where I really learned what it took to be an effective leader, how you can balance, having...

Dr. Kortni (05:55)
Wow.

Dr. Karen (06:10)
your company or your business in the black, but also caring about your employees, right? And I think that's so different than what I experienced in the newsroom. I did not experience really effective readers. In fact, I would say a large amount, most of the news directors and general managers I worked under would qualify as not very good managers at all.

Dr. Kortni (06:37)
yeah, that says a lot. really treasure your honesty, in terms of that, because I think it says a lot about many variety of different experiences. It also says a lot about what we can learn from them, because one of things that Dr. Karen and I have in common is making that transition

Dr. Karen (06:54)
Right.

Dr. Kortni (06:59)
into higher education and we always value what we can replicate and how we can really begin to learn. I'm really grateful that you shared that because one of the things about you you're a powerhouse when it comes down to leadership. And I say that, yes, as a dear friend, but I also say that.

in terms of knowing your strong, you know, academic background and, and me for the fact that I have a PhD that's focused on research and you have an EDD that is that really, helps us understand the value, right? Of powerful leadership. And, and I, and that's one of things I will say when, when people go, your PhD. I go, that's cool. Yeah, thanks. But.

I will admit, I'm really proud of my MBA I did it when I was news director because I always wanted to enhance my skills in management. that was really important to me to always be an effective leader for my team. And for the fact that you are, mean, honestly, Karen, I've seen how you've managed and how you lead. are just extraordinary.

You talked about servant leadership. How else has higher education helped shape your leadership style?

Dr. Karen (08:17)
In higher education, as you know, you're balancing staff, student needs, the constituency of the boards of trustees, foundation boards, but you're also, you have a huge body of faculty. And you have to respect the faculty because they bring years of experience in their career paths of research, of research and practice, which is what my degree is in. So my doctorate, EDD, is that you are studying while you're

while you're sort of like boots on the ground, right? I was always fascinated by the case studies all around us, right? We have COVID, for example, we had students struggling with their mental health, we had students struggling with balancing family needs with sick family members and at-risk family members with health conditions and things like that. We had faculty with the same struggles, but with the burden of providing a service,

We're struggling with information literacy. We're struggling with the respect of higher ed wavering. A lot of different environmental issues and educational issues at play, political issues at play. And so it is a very difficult period, but there was so much good happening every single day. Just people just being understanding patient and empathetic with one another. Students sharing.

things because now we could see into each other's homes, for a while. Just really coming to the table very humbly and empathetically and working together on solutions. And so I studied that. I actually studied the relationships between the faculty and the students during that time. And there was a real correlation, of course, in qualitative research. There, you can't show causation, but there's correlation. And so

there was a real correlation between the faculty who were honest and open and providing many channels of communication and access and the students who were successful. And that was between many different surveys, focus groups, faculty journals, I had them journaling. But it was really neat to see that. And so that's, think, what I learned. We can all come to the table and we can have high expectations and we can have those requirements, but...

what really the secret sauce to me is that open communication. And so I try and bring that into every environment that I go to. At the Carter Center, we work with so many partners. And I think that's really, I mean, there are many, many things that set Jimmy Carter aside in such a high regard in everything he's done, especially post presidency with the Carter Center and Mrs. Carter, but they bring people to the table. They have...

difficult conversations with many, different people from all sorts of backgrounds and situations. And I think that's one of the biggest successes that they have brought to the Carter Center. Carter Center continues to do as we wage peace, fight disease, and build hope, is that we are having those conversations with people who are in a variety of situations. We're not expecting this one size fits all model, right?

as a leader, think that's really so critical is to listen for understanding, not for response, to try and put yourself into the situation that you're faced with or that you're trying to help solve and to work in communication with people to say, okay, we're going to try this. What is your experience? What have you done before? I think the worst kind of leadership to me is somebody who sort of parachutes in, makes blanket demands and changes just for change sake.

does not look at data, does not talk to people impacted, makes assumptions. Those are where you then sometimes see people feel like they're not in a state of belonging, or they're not part of what it is you're trying to do. So I think that's who servant leadership is to come to the table and say, this has been my experience with this situation before. I do have this experience. But you also have my respect because this is impacting you.

So how can we bring those two worlds together and what is it we can do to get to that common finish line that we both want for you? And so that's one reason why I'm just finishing up my first year at the Parter Center in October. So now at that one year mark, and I can say that is such a great feeling, is when even when our funders come to the table or when we're with partners or we're partnering on a new initiative, it's so wonderful that people know that

First of all, we're invited to that space and that we are there to engage. We want to hear that back and forth communication. We want to work together and have that synergy so that we get to that end goal more quickly. Everybody's on board. We're all part of that solution.

Dr. Kortni (13:01)
You know, Karen, as you were sitting here sharing, I, gosh, I thought to myself, this is so much wonderful information in regards to a manager, especially a new manager, that's listening and is trying to understand how to go about being effective. And one of the things that you shared, which I feel should be on a wall or maybe a t-shirt or both, and that is...

Dr. Karen (13:26)
or a hat.

Dr. Kortni (13:28)
That is listening, not for response. Talk about that. Does not simply just, hey, I'm listening, but I'm listening to respond, but actively listening so that person feels seen. So with a new manager out there listening, what would you advise them to do in regards to making sure your team member feel seen?

Dr. Karen (13:53)
Yeah, I don't think it's 100 % foolproof. By any means, I'm not saying I'm the perfect manager, by any means. I think it's a learning and growing process. But if you come to the table listening, truly listening to what people are telling you and not immediately to respond to shoot someone down to stop that open dialogue, right? You come to the table, you come to a conversation, let's take the table out of it. You come to a conversation and you say, I'd like to know what's like you.

truly want to know that and to truly want to know what that response would be, take notes, make mental notes, but engage in that conversation so that what that person is telling you has value. The worst thing you can do is say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I already knew that, I already know what's gonna happen if that, no, you don't, you're making an assumption as to what they're gonna say or you're immediate and we all have had those situations where you,

have a conversation, especially a heartfelt conversation with the supervisor, you say, here is what's going on in my life. I'm taking this moment to be vulnerable and to open up to you and to share something with you. The least that person can do is just be silent and value that silence. I think that is something I've really learned as a manager too, is that you can get almost as much in those moments of silence as you can in those moments of talking. Because if you pause,

someone's going to fill that void and it doesn't have to be you. It can be that other person. And that sometimes is the biggest area of growth is when you leave that space and allow that person to move into that space emotionally, you know, be vulnerable and just say to you, here's what I need from you. In my experience in higher ed, my staff, they were with me for a very long time. And I credit that, that I left that space. Again, I bring it back to COVID because that was one of the

most tumultuous times in higher education because there was so much change. But if you were to say, we all need to move all these services online, and a lot of our staff were hesitant. There was a lot of growth in technology, and they might express a concern. If you immediately cut that concern off, you're not addressing it. You're not hearing it. You're not coming up with a solution. You're not working together. You're just immediately invalidating that. Allow them to express it.

Just remain quiet, allow them to continue explaining what they mean and what context they mean it. Sometimes they just want to bounce something off of you to see if it's a valuable solution or a workable solution. And then speak. You know, once you've fully digested that information. I more than one occasion have said, you know what, we're going to pin this because I don't, I think I know how to solve this, but I'm going to do little more research and get back to you. There's a lot of value in that as well because you're showing that.

it's worth you taking some time to try and come up with a solution for that person. So you're investing your time, your resources, your bandwidth in that staffer. in my experience, that's been extremely valuable and it's created bonds, you know, that, you know, you can't always give people raises, you can't always give them tangible things, but you can give them a piece of, your leadership. And so I think that's a lot of what is very successful.

especially in today's day and age and what people need from their employers.

Dr. Kortni (17:14)
Absolutely. It's so important to show you care. It's interesting because one of the things that I just really value so much about Mrs. Carter is that quote that she has you want to make the world a better place, is really show how much you care. And caring, and this is me paraphrasing that quote, but caring is so important.

To me, it's almost a superpower of being a manager because like you said, may not be able to, depending on your resources, be able to provide the raise or maybe certain things might be missing in terms of certain resources. But certainly as it relates to the humanization and the connection making sure that we are operating on a level of care is so important.

The two scholars that I greatly admire who's written a book called Awakening Compassionate Work calls caring a competitive advantage. And I love what you just shared. Yeah, I mean, we don't even think about that, right? In terms of the world we're in all the time. I just love the fact that they shared that. Another thing that I really value, for those who may not know, I serve on the advisory board for the Rosalynn Carter Fellowships for Mental Health.

journalism so excited when Dr. Karen just talked about her being her year because she's just been extraordinary And one of the things that I think is so impactful is the mission which is about strengthening best practices in regards to behavioral reporting.

Can you discuss a little bit about how the program is and then we'll transition in terms of the call?

Dr. Karen (19:04)
Absolutely. this is Mrs. Carter's baby, the Rosalind Carter Fellowships for Mental Health Journalism. It is the only program at the Carter Center that carries Mrs. Carter's name. she started it in 1996. So if you do a little quick math, we're almost at 30 years, which is remarkable for a fellowship. The fellowship has grown and changed a lot, but it still retains the initial call, which is to improve reporting in the mental health center.

Dr. Kortni (19:19)
Wow.

Dr. Karen (19:32)
subject areas. So we want to help provide best practices and strategies for reporters in this work. think mental health, especially the area of suicide, can be extremely intimidating for a journalist. Let's face it, you're often not expecting it to happen when you arrive on a scene. And so there's a lot of nuance and care that needs to be expressed. But you're also trying to do your who, what, where, when, why, and get those details of the story out.

what we need is for reporters to pause, for editors to pause, for everyone in news production in the television news industry to pause because there are some things that can cause harm, they can cause contagion, they can create a situation where someone else struggling with their mental health could make a permanent decision for a temporary problem. we really don't want to do that.

terrifying of a thought. So as a journalist, we are never entering a situation where we're hoping to cause harm. think every journalist is doing that work for the right reason. But this is one of those areas that can be intimidating because there's just so much going on in other people's worlds. And our journalists themselves, which I know I'm jumping ahead here, but we know that our journalists are struggling as well.

They are almost like first responders and they often are at the scene when first responders are there. And the cumulative effect of the images of trauma is very difficult, as we know. And oftentimes, as we stated, there isn't support when the journalists go back to the nation or back to the desk or back to their even their home environments as freelancers. So it's so important.

that they have resources, that they have a plan. But it's also really important that we're training journalists to do this work well. We don't want to not report on it. That's not helping with stigma. Mrs. Carter's goal was to reduce stigma from mental health reporting. So we want to be able to talk about mental health reporting, mental health rather, in a very ethical and responsible way. But we want to talk about it because it's not something to be ashamed of. Every one of us has physical health and has mental health and it runs a spectrum, right?

of different times in our lives. But when there's trauma in people's lives and there's, you know, uncareful mental health conditions, that's where we are concerned. We want to make sure that people know there are resources out there for them. The news reporters do a great job of sharing 9-8-8, of sharing different resources, of making people aware of therapies and the fact that there's parity so that we should have the same level of insurance coverage over physical health care as mental health care.

it's so very important that journalists are telling these stories.

Dr. Kortni (22:19)
Absolutely, absolutely. It's interesting when you're talking about minimizing harm, And one of the things I really value as it relates to the fellowship is every step of it, it's about minimizing harm. And I think it's so impactful. And also as it relates to, we often talk about words mattering.

I think in terms of all those different levels, mean, Mrs. Carter, it's just a pioneer

Gosh, her legacy is just incredible and so honored. I know the both of us are so honored to be a part of it. And so one of the things I also value is, and Karen kind of alluded to this, it's the importance of talking about how to responsibly be a better reporter when it comes down to mental health.

But what I love so much about the Carter Center and the work that Karen is doing is the fact that we are also thinking about what it looks like in terms of a journalistic well-being element, right? The Dart Center says that 80 to 100 % of journalists face work-related trauma. And this is part of the mission of this podcast is

really helping to share and to be able to provide resources to newsrooms. So one of the things that I know very well is the call that the Carter Center is making. Karen, tell us a little bit about what that call is and what our audience can do to take part in it.

Dr. Karen (24:06)
Are you talking about the news executives call that we're talking about? Yeah. the call, I love that. love that because other countries, there's journalistic support entities in other countries that call it much more extreme names like manifestos and things. And we know in the US that's not always a positive thing. So a call, I love that. think that's so great.

Dr. Kortni (24:07)
You got it. She's like, what do you mean the call? I'm gonna start calling it the call.

No.

Dr. Karen (24:33)
The duty of care, that's wonderful. You know, sometimes I'm tempted to call it how to protect your bottom line while protecting your journalists because it is a financial benefit to take care of your people. it's so much cheaper to keep your people than to have to recruit for positions at any company. And so that pertains to media. so protect your journalists and your journalists will continue to do great things for your audience and for your bottom line.

Dr. Kortni (25:00)
Absolutely.

Dr. Karen (25:01)
You know, our journalists, you know, I joke that radiology people were, you know, monitoring a tracking device that measures how much exposure they've had to radiation. We almost need to think of trauma in that same way. You know, if our journalists are going out on really horrible stories, day after day and story after story, that radiation monitor would be lit up and they would be sent home for several days, right? It would be, yeah, if they were around that much dangerous.

Dr. Kortni (25:26)
just blinking, yes.

Dr. Karen (25:31)
material. So I think we need to think of, you know, stop thinking of journalists as being tough. They can just overcome anything. They're human beings and there's so much that any human being can be exposed to and continue working at a certain level. And so we have wonderful partners again that I'm so fortunate to work with as a Stop Stigma Together group of, it's really a coalition of different mental health and advocacy groups and non-

profit in NGOs. And so we are working with them for this spring to bring some of these executives to Atlanta, to the Carter Center, and to have some really great conversations and presentations about what I think industry journalism can become. You how can we take better care of our journalists? And it's not just training our journalists. So for 30 years, we have almost, we have been training a cohort of journalists to report a certain way on this topic and to

become a resource almost for their colleagues to help them find care when they themselves need it. And then they come back to us and say, that's great, but then my supervisor changes my headline and puts that stigma back in it. what do I do? How do I handle that? And we help coach them through those conversations, but wouldn't it be great if we also had those folks sit with us and have some really hard conversations too. How can we?

institutionalize, how we say in higher ed, how do we institutionalize the policy or program, how do we institutionalize self-care in the journal? How do we make that the standard of care? Because that will save you money, it will save your journalists some heartache, giving them resources, providing services, making sure they have insurance and quality insurance that makes it reasonably affordable to go to see appropriate health care practitioners. These are all really important things.

And if they're not done, then the journalists are going to leave the industry. And we have already seen a huge amount of journalists leaving the field. And journalism is integral to democracy. We need to have journalists doing the work. And there are so many areas of the country now that have very little coverage, that have very little resources if something is not right, and you are hoping to shine a light on it, and you live in one of these news deserts, it's very difficult. So we need to protect our journalists.

We need to help the start of journalism with different grant opportunities throughout the US. know, having fellowships helps you become a great candidate for additional fellowships. So that's one thing that we do enjoy with our fellowships. also bring our Rosalind Carter Fellows, if they're US based, into our Parity Collaborative, which is another program out of the Carter Center that funds journalism. And we help to cross bridges and paths.

with others doing the same work and help to share that information with our journalists, share it with our over 300 alumni of our programs, and just continue to provide resources as best we can and continue to make these relationships.

Dr. Kortni (28:40)
That is fantastic. It's just extraordinary work. And you're just doing amazing work in regards to that area. And honestly, to this day, I feel so honored to play a small part in regards to serving on the advisory board. So I'm curious, and I keep on calling you Karen, and then I go back to Dr. Karen. So I'm going back to Dr. Karen. She knows how I feel about that. I'm going back to Dr. Karen. And you know,

I am really curious about what you would like to see in newsrooms when it comes down to well-being because you've been in the industry for how long?

Karen is Karen is covering her mouth as she's

Dr. Karen (29:28)
I was a journalist for 16 years.

ideologies, both broadcasting journalism and writing and education and mentorship. been many decades, several, more than several. My whole professional career has been in the crossroads of education and the dissemination of that education.

Dr. Kortni (29:50)
this is what makes it so powerful is the fact that you have had so many experiences across all of these different elements in terms of industries, And from journalism now into nonprofit work and then previously higher education. What do you think an ideal newsroom looks like? What would you like to see?

when it comes down to a newsroom that is really making workplace well-being its heartbeat.

Dr. Karen (30:24)
I'd like to see empathy. But again, Courtney, I just told you that I don't want to parachute in and tell everybody how it is to do their work. So I know in the time that I left the newsroom, there has been a lot of change. I know there's a lot of financial hardships. There's a lot of very, very different types of advertising and social media and all of the different challenges with information literacy. So I'm not going to tell anyone.

you know what that perfect newsroom looks like, but I know we can do better than what our journalists are telling us they're experiencing. I know the burnout rates can be improved. I know the access to therapy can be provided. We know additional education and putting people in cohort types of learning modules, right? Bringing journalists together from competing maybe markets or even from other places in a fellowship kind of.

environment strengthens their resolve and their resilience. So some of those things exist in the research already and implementing them is not very expensive and there are partners who want to help them do this work and come up with these ideas. We just need them to be willing to sit with us and have those conversations. So I think that's the first step but I think empathy we just need to be able to go into those meetings and have those hard conversations with our

advertising executives and know every people from the networks if that's applicable you know we need to be able to have those those difficult conversations on the corporate level but we need to be able to train those people who are in those meetings who are also interacting on a daily basis with the journalists and editors and know assignment directors and all those different positions to also be able to bring empathy into the conversation so I see a lot of

similarities in my time in higher ed, in my time in journalism. And I think, you know, you are almost a gatekeeper in those positions. You're hearing sort of the mandates from above, but you're also hearing the concerns from positions that my people are yours. And you have to try and find that synergy in between of how to implement the changes and the mandates that you're being told while also caring for your people. It's hard, it's hard work. And I think supporting those middle level managers.

is so critical in all different corporate environments, but I think specifically in these newsrooms and these news environments because it's tough work, but we have to do it. We have to be able to protect our government and the people who are editing through images for more, constantly seeing things that they're having to protect the public from. people doing this work and it doesn't occur to us.

and daily basis when I turn on the TV that somebody went through hours of footage to screen for you, you know, so that you don't have to see images that are not appropriate for you. But they're realistic things that are happening in the world. And so how do you care for the people who are doing that work? It's tough. It's not a one conversation way to fix these things. That's why your podcast is more than one episode. But yeah, it works.

Dr. Kortni (33:41)
Yes. Yes. Yeah, you're right. And hopefully what people will feel when they're listening to this podcast is a safe space to be able to hear some tips, but then also I love what you shared in regards to even earlier talking about, you know, your management journey. It is ever evolving. And

Dr. Karen (33:43)
The work is done.

Dr. Kortni (34:11)
Every dynamic, especially if you're a new manager, even if you've been a manager for some time, I think it's important to always give yourself that grace and understand the value of learning and saying, okay, okay, we had that conversation. Didn't work out as the way I thought, or maybe I could have handled it this way, or maybe I need to look at it very differently,

That's the beauty of operating on a level of empathy, Because empathy is, yes, what we give to the world in terms of perspective taking, but then when we're operating in terms of self-compassion, we can learn to also be kind to ourselves. And I think that's just as important in regards to how we are kind to others. So I'm curious about one more question. Although,

There's a part of me that never wants to wrap this up, but I know we do. I mean, this is what happens with Karen and I together. We talk forever. So I'm curious, because I asked this of everyone, and this is going to be the running theme with the compassionate newsroom. And that is pulling all these wonderful experiences from guests, and then having them also

define what they feel compassionate leadership is. So I'm gonna have you put on your, now your researcher hat, and also kind of dive in terms of some of your lived experience. What do you define compassionate leadership? What does that look like to you?

Dr. Karen (35:57)
It is a multifaceted approach for sure. It involves active listening. It involves servant leadership. It involves putting people over workplaces. And I think it looks different for every workplace and it looks different for every person. But I think it's just a refresh on the model of, you know, eating the beast of the news industry and at the detriment of your people.

that's not going to work anymore. It's just not where we are as a country. And I think we also need to be aware. It's a level of awareness that's incumbent upon the management to look around and say, well, here's our environment now. And I need to prepare my staff and provide retreats and provide breaks and provide higher ed or professional development or something that continues to help them grow, enrich, and heal from all of this.

other stuff that they're exposed to in a gender basis. So I think a compassionate newsroom may be in and of itself different from the next compassionate newsroom, but I think the commonalities between them are active listening, servant leadership, empathy, understanding,

have to be a bad person to supervise people. You can be a good person and still hit all your goals and still knock that strategic plan out of the park. You know, and I think it's actually easier because when your people follow you during times of peace, they follow you during times of trouble. And you have to build those relationships in your times of peace so that when a pandemic hits again or, you know,

Dr. Kortni (37:16)
Yeah.

Dr. Karen (37:39)
you're covering stories in a really dangerous and dark time. There's that resilience to carry you through. People will trust you. And you can't get that any other way than authenticity and a genuine empathy and care.

Dr. Kortni (37:56)
Absolutely. I love that. One of the things I really treasure, there was a lot of t-shirt moments in terms of, might be a great t-shirt. And that, when you said, you value people over the workplace. And I think that is so powerful because it's about really connecting as human beings.

Dr. Karen (37:58)
you

Yeah.

Dr. Kortni (38:24)
and the value of that. And when we think about it, especially, especially in news, you know, we spend a lot of hours at work, but I'm sorry, when you're in news, it's like your whole life. It's not simply, I tell people all the time when they ask me about, you know, when I worked in news and they go, my gosh, how was it? I said, it's a lifestyle. They're like, lifestyle? It is a lifestyle. Cause it's completely immersive.

Dr. Karen (38:38)
It is.

Dr. Kortni (38:53)
And so I really treasure that you talked about the value of going back to what is so important and also going back to Mrs. Carter, is the importance of valuing people and care. Dr. Karen Ladley, thank you so much for being here today.